Greenhornet. The issue with destroying it or not putting it in your hospital records is that if you have JW family members and they get a copy of the document from the congregation secretary, the copy is just as enforceable as the original.
John Davis
JoinedPosts by John Davis
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29
What would happen to a JW who respectfully refused to fill out a no blood DPA?
by Island Man ini know you'll be involuntarily disassociated if you unrepentantly accepted a blood transfusion; and i know you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy if you openly disagreed with watchtower teaching.
what if you have done none of the above but simply respectfully refused to fill out the dpa without giving any reason for your refusal - so they can't accuse you of openly disagreeing with the no-blood doctrine and df you for apostasy.
they don't know why you're refusing and you're not giving them the reason - and you're being very respectful.. what can they do?.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Lee Elder you stated:
There are inherent limitations when developing an estimate of something as complex as the Watchtower's partial blood transfusion ban. Of course it would be ideal if we had better data that would permit us to be more exact than we have been. There are both known limitations, and unknown limitations. With respects to Dr. Muramoto's method, here are his written comments to me:
Why is it that in your essay you do not include any of the limitations that you speak of here in that essay. You don't refer to anyways that you took to overcome some of those limitations.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
OrphanCrow:
You stated:
That is true. However, the number of infants/children that have succumbed to a no blood position are not included in any of the estimates that have been done on JW blood deaths. The retrospective studies that have been done, on which the estimates have extrapolated from, have only included the adult population.
Your statement in this is wrong. The study that the Doctor uses does include at least pediatric patients which totalled 123 or 9% of the study's population.
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The most absurd reason have you heard someone disfellowshipped for ?
by Chook insomeone said on forum they knew someone df for not going to assigned meeting in old days .
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John Davis
Speeding ticket would be if someone is known for reckless driving or who habitually speed to a dangerous level. The thought is that you don't recognize the sanctity of life and you are putting your life as well as others people lives at danger. That is why Witnesses don't go sky diving or bungee jumping.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
I don't believe that the doctrine is correct, I think that no one should have a say over our own bodies. And I think you can make an argument on the merits of the morality of the issue.
But when you start to make estimates as to how many people die from a certain belief system then you have to make those estimates that can stand up to scrutiny and the method that you employed to come to that estimate. And I don't think that these estimates met that standard.
Certainly, other people think that but I honestly don't there are so many different issues that have come up with this estimate that makes me question the methodology behind the estimate.
I have not even brought up that one of the estimates is based on a single 18-year-old study and the second is based on a 6-year-old study. No references were made to any other study.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Well, I have expressed how I think your methodology is flawed. You take a number that is mostly caused by a certain number of conditions and correlate that with the entire JW population to come up with a number. If all JWs were exclusively having those conditions then yes your methodology would be correct but since they are not then it is flawed.
Again I think you are doing something noble for trying to come up with a number but there is a number of factors that you have to put into your evaluation to come up with an educated estimate.
Edit: Also as you state it doesn't include third world countries. That would have it's own complications even if all JWs took blood, such as the acquisition, storage and administration of the blood. Even a simple thing as administering a vaccine is complicated in third world countries let alone the storage and administration of blood which is much more complicated. Such as blood having a very specific best used by, has to be stored in very specific and complex situations, the testing of the blood for both pathogens and type for proper administration and the need for qualified professionals to actually administer it.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Lee Elder:
You stated:
Bear in mind, you are reviewing the work of one of the best experts in this entire field. An author who has been published more times in peer reviewed medical journals than anyone else on this matter. Dr. Muramoto has produced a very, very conservative estimate which is precisely why we use it. It completely ignores all deaths related to the three primary causes of morbidity in JW's related to the blood issue.
What are his credentials? What can be read on BMJ is 2 articles from the journal on medical ethics. What other papers has he written and what subjects did he write on? What is he board certified in? Is the doctor a Hematologist, Cardiologist, Thoracic Surgeon, a Hospitalist?
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
TD you use examples such as Hodgkin's Lymphoma and AML as your examples as to why the number offered by Lee Elder is low and that it is probably higher.
While yes both disease progression would require a blood transfusion in order to treat and possibly cure. The ratio of people with these two diseases is extremely low. For AML it is 0.5 percent of the population and for Hodgkins, it is only 204,000 people in the US with that disease for a population of 300 Million people. So yes if you add these people in that would increase the number of preventable deaths but you cannot use that to correlate the numbers that Lee Elder is attempting to bring out.
So yes if you add these people in that would increase the number of preventable deaths but you cannot use that to correlate the numbers that Lee Elder is attempting to bring out. it is a sensationalized number. It could be very high but no one knows what the actual number or no reputable journal would present a paper like this in their publication because there are too many factors not included in order to come to an educated estimate.
Lee Elder: You stated that you had presented this at a conference, but you didn't state what conference it was? was there any push back on what was presented?
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
TD I completely agree with you that the original study did not include emergency situations or forms of cancer or rarer blood disorders. But that doesn't mean that Lee Elder's methodology isn't flawed. To have come up with a true estimate he would have had to consider a number of other factors, just a few of them:
Percentage of use of blood transfusions in the following scenarios:
Emergency Situations
Perioperative
Uses within Oncology diagnosis
Uses within haematology diagnosis
Then you would have to look at how common these diseases and forms of blood cancer are. Is it 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000
What is the rate of emergency care that hospital protocol would initiate a blood transfusion? For instance, in a 5 person car accident would it be necessary for all 5 people to receive a blood transfusion or 1 of them or none of them.
These are just 3 examples of questions that would need to be answered for a real estimate.
It is certainly a noble goal to come up with an estimate but what Lee Elder did was a very basic calculation without looking at all of the different variables that are necessary to make an educated estimate of the numbers.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
I never said that Watchtower doesn't do the same thing. I just said that it may not have been the best article to make your point with. Probably could have found another article to make the same point.